|
Post by stillaphoenixphan on May 3, 2013 11:21:28 GMT -6
This is what I don't get. If Bross decided to transfer to a D-III private school, what does he stand to gain from making any of this stuff public? I'm reading a lot of sniping at Bross. I just can't see why anyone thinks he's lying. He literally has nothing to gain from making a national story about how he sh*t himself. To me, there are only two options: the better is that he and the people around him have different perceptions of the same situation. The worse is that he's being totally honest and some people are covering for Wardle. It was discouraging to hear Brown and Sykes contradict themselves on the radio the other day; one says nothing happened and the other says Bross did defecate, but he elected to continue on his own. Sounds to me like Bross and Cougill are just telling it like it is in their eyes and everyone on Wardle's side is trying to make it sound like it isn't as bad as it is or paint them as liars. I sure hope there's no ill intent. But it definitely sounds to me like this stuff is true, and that Cougill and Bross viewed it as malicious. The investigation should definitely clear it up whether or not Wardle is responsible for these things. Personally, I doubt he was doing anything except being the tough coach. But he may have crossed the line. Whether or not he is exonerated, I do hope he reevaluates his coaching style. The story certainly appears true. Even Sykes agrees, the difference is Bross saying he was ridiculed or ordered into continuing and Skyes saying he was encouraged to continue and Bross chose to continue? To me this is what's causing the difference and to quote you. " To me, there are only two options: the better is that he and the people around him have different perceptions of the same situation." Also if you go back to the beginning neither student made a charge. It started with Mr. & Mrs. Bross sending out letters to the UW and media and the Mrs. Cougill doing the same. I do feel sorry because I think the ex students got caught up in it and had no choice. That's why all the talk about Helicopter parents because the men had not said anything at that point. Even though in Cougills case the complaint was from 2/2012? Yet the ex students never said anything to the coaches or school admin? It is sad, and truly there won't be any winners. At this point everyone has been trashed including UWGB.
|
|
|
Post by axaguy on May 4, 2013 9:30:34 GMT -6
My 2 cents from a UIC guy. Longtime college sports fan. WAY too much time and effort is being spent, publicly, on this "investigation." I am not a BW supporter or hater and have witnessed many coaching styles and players over time.
It sounds like BW is a vocal, antagonistic, pusher of a coach. Loud, strong willed and self driven. This is not a judgment of good or bad, mind you. It's just his style it seems. Sounds like Bross is a guy with visible talent (height) that hasn't been used, developed or coached very much up to now. Looks like BW was pushing him and Bross wasn't mature, man enough, to take it or respond accordingly.
So he crapped his pants? So what? None of our business really. Ever been in a boot camp in the Marines?? You think those guys aren't pushed and mentally challenged daily? You have to stand up and "be a man" and deal with it and letters from home aren't going to help. Dealing with it involves his own choice on a course of action.... One of which is nothing, not responding, which is what he did...... and the result. Which is what it sounds like. If the style of treatment couldn't be handled why hadn't he chosen to leave...at any time...if he couldn't bear it?? Free country you know and he wasn't under any obligation to stay. And, again, I'm not condoning or agreeing with BW's style just saying the young man has choices HE needs to make on his own and live with them. Yes, this ISN'T the military and lives aren't or won't be on the line but he needs to grow up anyway....
Sounds like BW doesn't use "coffee hour" language and terminology in practice either. per Cougill. Not my personal choice as a model for a coach or motivation but I certainly don't have all the answers. Word has it that "beloved" Al McGuire had a vocal, physical style of his own...... Different than BW? Bob Knight? Anyone been though a coach K season?? You think he's a "kid's gloves" type guy or we haven't "publicly" investigated him because he's won championships and doesn't throw chairs..... Belittled and intimidating words are just that....words. "Sticks and stones" sound familiar to you?
The Rutger's situation?? Really now. I know this thought is going to piss off some folks but let's be real here, again. So he pushes guys around? So what? Some of these college kids are big people, size wise, and incredibly immature and stupid, yes stupid, and need to listen and do as they are told. Sometimes you have to get their attention to do so..... The video I saw showed him pushing a kid.... Maybe he didn't understand the "when this happens you go here" concept of a play for the 100th time??? Ahhh what's the use............ You ever coach? Where are the whips and chains?? Surely the scars are visible somewhere, right?
I'm not condoning anyone's actions or styles but also not saying that some young men need to mature and grow up, as well. I'm also not saying I agree with any or all of the above mentioned coaches or methods referred to but don't feel we should evaluate their styles in public, either.
Everything in life isn't fair or equal. You WILL work for bosses that you don't like or don't like you. You will not always get the recognition and praise for a job well done. Other people will take credit for work you did or ideas you had. You will be backstabbed somewhere along the line. And all the time YOU will have choices to make and courses of action to determine by yourself and reaction to judge.
Hey, if BW IS actually disciplined or fired for whatever reason I hear Kevin O'Neal is looking for a job.......... Might make BW look like a softy...
|
|
|
Post by GBPhoenix1 on May 4, 2013 10:26:00 GMT -6
I am sorry everyone, I had to respond.....yes I am back. Thank you wannabeaphan. Your perspective and thoughts are right on. I too was a D1 athlete and most of these guys don't have any idea what these kids go through to get a D1 scholarship especially those at the mid and low major level (not to say those highly talented high major kids don't either). Most of the guys in programs like Green Bay are not the highest recruited guys or there has been a "detour" in their path to playing D1 basketball. These guys have all busted their ass and are tough exceptional athletes. Now, granted some have flaws, as most of us do. THEY ARE NOT PERFECT, I was without a real computer for half the week so I am behind the times a bit. With that said this part of BigV's post is part of the issue with Bross. Ryan Bross has not busted his ass for years and is not a tough exceptional athlete. Ryan Bross played two years of basketball in a terrible program and Ryan Bross is just a huge guy who couldn't even play for a bad high school. As I have said before Wardle knew this but to say Ryan knows what it takes to be good is hard to believe. Kids with this little experience at this age might not know where their physical limit is. When I saw Bross play in high school I wouldn't describe him as a self starter who would push himself. I was talking to my friend who is a high school track coach last night at his meet. I asked why one of his mile runners was so slow. He said it is a struggle to get some kids out of their comfort zone. There is little doubt that Wardle was pushing Bross to get out of his comfort zone. Some of this stuff may be over the line but the shitting his pants from running, being told to get a girl friend or getting sworn at seems to be more of an attempt to get a kid with some size to actually get out of his comfort zone and do something with that size.
|
|
|
Post by GBPhoenix1 on May 4, 2013 10:42:59 GMT -6
I stated in this forum a couple of months ago that I was a DI athlete. Reading this the comments on this forum make it clear to me that very few of those that post were. If you think that a player, scholarship, walk on, redshirt, whatever, can "choose not to run" you are crazy. You would be disciplined. A coach-player relationship at this level is like an employer-employee relationship. You wonder why only past players are commenting? The current players are all afraid they will lose there job if they say somethng. Sykes and Brown need to stay on Wardles good side, so of course they are defending him. Both probably want to play in the NBA and need Wardle to help them get there. Both are probably treated well by Wardle - it's a rare coach who treats all players the same.Most of you say you are fans of the team yet I am reading alot of name-calling of the players, the very people who put on the show that we all love to watch. Soft? Wimps? P**sy's? There is NO way that any of these guys got to the DI level by being a baby or soft. This is big business, may be not so much at GB as at some other shcools, but big business just the same. Coaches jobs are on the line all the time and they push players to levels that are inhumane at times. Not ok. But it happens all the time. I am also amazed that the fans on this site are so quick to question what a young man has to say (Bross, cougill) but without question and blindly support Wardle? Or any of the adults in this circus. Its pretty obvious that Bross and Cougil were ready to talk once the season was over and they knew they would never be under Wardles control again- should be obvious to those that question why now? why not months ago? Put yourself in there shoes. If you walk away, quit, talk back you could be off the team. In Cougills case, maybe your out of school too because your scholarship is gone. One more thing- for those that think we will ever find out what the investigator found out, think again. University Employment lawyers will be all over this and will make sure that the university never reveals anything about Wardle. I was fortunate enough in my time at GB to participate in one of the non revenue olympic sports for GB. I was fortunate that the NCAA requires schools to give out scholarships for these sports. So while I didn't play basketball I did compete for a D1 sports team, "we had uniforms and everything, it was great." Major league anyone?? Anyway, I share this because my experience was in any practice you could push yourself to your limit. If you didn't complete the practice there were not any consequences directly. Yet I can say that the guys who didn't finish usually didn't participate on game day and the guys who didn't finish were looked down on by the other guys. In my 4 years in sports at GB we had a core group who worked hard and pushed each other. You finished the workouts for them just as much as you finished for yourself. It was disappointing everyone and as a competitor you felt like you were losing ground to your teammates. As I have aged I still stay active. I play league sports and I have run marathons. Go to the half way point or later of a marathon. You will see people crapping their pants or running into some of the most disgusting port a potties on the planet. There are everyday people pushing themselves to their limit or beyond. If they go beyond they try to regroup and then keep pushing. Not everyone is a self starter, some people need teammates or a coach to push them. The media attention on the boot camp issue is a non starter to me. Ryan wasn't suffering of a heart issue, dehydration, broken bone or sprained ankle etc. He wasn't at risk. He wanted to stop. He wasn't at his actual limit and Wardle pushed him to keep going. He choose to follow Wardle's yelling. He ended up filling his pants. A tough competitor probably would have tossed his dirty undies in the woods and finished his run. No harm, no foul.
|
|
|
Post by GBPhoenix1 on May 4, 2013 10:57:48 GMT -6
This is what I don't get. If Bross decided to transfer to a D-III private school, what does he stand to gain from making any of this stuff public? I'm reading a lot of sniping at Bross. I just can't see why anyone thinks he's lying. He literally has nothing to gain from making a national story about how he sh*t himself. To me, there are only two options: the better is that he and the people around him have different perceptions of the same situation. The worse is that he's being totally honest and some people are covering for Wardle. It was discouraging to hear Brown and Sykes contradict themselves on the radio the other day; one says nothing happened and the other says Bross did defecate, but he elected to continue on his own. Sounds to me like Bross and Cougill are just telling it like it is in their eyes and everyone on Wardle's side is trying to make it sound like it isn't as bad as it is or paint them as liars. I sure hope there's no ill intent. But it definitely sounds to me like this stuff is true, and that Cougill and Bross viewed it as malicious. The investigation should definitely clear it up whether or not Wardle is responsible for these things. Personally, I doubt he was doing anything except being the tough coach. But he may have crossed the line. Whether or not he is exonerated, I do hope he reevaluates his coaching style. Lets see what does Bross stand to gain? There are lots of options you haven't considered. 1. He was embarrassed that he crapped his pants or didn't cut it at the D1 level. So by going public and getting the blame shifted to Wardle it vindicates Bross. 2. Tupac once rapped "Revenge is the sweetest joy next to getting..." well never mind the finish of that. Point is he comes public just to get revenge on Wardle. 3. He told his parents and they made a big issue of it. In fear of disappointing or losing his parents he chooses to make allegations public to satisfy them. 4. If the university finds that Wardle verbally abused him and terminates/punishes Coach Wardle, I can't imagine a civil suit isn't far behind. Bross alleges verbal abuse. You mean to tell me that the family wouldn't seek damages for the abuse? You come out with allegations, if the univsersity sees fit to do something to Wardle, it isn't going to take much of a case from the Bross family to get damages for the abuse. As for Alec and Keifer. In their own way they did indicate that Bross did crap himself and that Bross did get yelled at. There is no doubt from them and in my own mind I have no doubt these things happened. I do doubt the context. In literal format it looks like Wardle mocked him. In a different context could it be something like Wardle wants his guys to be the toughest team in the HL and this hill workout will make you tough. It was so tough we "ran the shit out of a guy"...context of you will be tougher in games now and "we should do this next year"...to keep you tough. Why have a team meeting to keep this silent but then mock him in the open and repeat mocking him? That doesn't make sense either.
|
|
|
Post by can opener man on May 4, 2013 11:11:20 GMT -6
axaguy had some great points.
did cals mike montgomery make physcial contact with crabbe right in the middle of the game this year?
i really dont think shitting ur pants is that big of a deal, i have had the flu and was throwing up and shit my pants duirng my adult life. what are u going to do if u are at a job and u have the shits and u dont want to get marked for an occurance for going home sick, and u stay at work and accidently crap ur pants a little bit and then u have to go in the bathroom and clean it and throw the underwear away. are u gonna say ur job made u do it because they keep track of unplanned absenses ?
this is my milestone 69th post.
Also, just like bigv/wannabephan (same ip address), I am formerly a division 1 athlete. whether that is true or not, no one will ever know. because i will hide behind a fake name.
|
|
|
Post by phearthephoenix on May 4, 2013 11:34:04 GMT -6
There is NO way that any of these guys got to the DI level by being a baby or soft. Completely false. Bross got to D1 because he is 7-1 and Wardle took a huge gamble on him and now its blowing up in his face. Thankfully this investigation and this circus should be over by the end of next week
|
|
|
Post by shooting the J on May 5, 2013 8:01:22 GMT -6
One question I continue to run through my head is, if Bross had it so bad, why didn't he transfer out at semester break? Lots of kids do that, and since he wasn't staying D1 and was already redshirting, it was an easier move for him than most.
Before I get back to that, I'd like to point out a few things I've learned recently about Brennan Cougill. Did you know Cougill was caught cheating not once, but twice, at Green Bay? He was also caught cheating his junior year.
Cougill's mom, Gina, complained that Wardle would no longer take her phone calls, she was only allowed to contact assistant Brian Barone. Did you know this wasn't the 1st time she was banned from calling a head coach? When Brennan was at Iowa, Gina was eventually banned from calling then head coach Todd Lickliter.
Gina complained that her post game facebook rant shouldn't have been a de-merrit for her son. Did you know that she also made a scene after numerous games when Brennan was at Iowa?
Did you know that a year ago Brennan Cougill told things to a player that poisoned his outlook on his Phoenix future and lead to a transfer? I wish I could go into detail of this, but I can't.
Back to Ryan Bross. Watching the game from my seats right behind the bench, it always seemed Bross loved being a Phoenix. He was a high energy guy on the the bench, always cheering on his team. When a player is disgruntled, you can see it. Kam Cerroni was clearly disgruntled. Bross didn't seem to be.
So why the sudden change? If things were OK to stick around after the 1st semester, why leave and attack the coach on the way out a few months later?
Did Brennan Cougill get in this naive, immature young man's ear and tell him something to poison his outlook? Did Cougs use info like Bross not gaining a scholarship or being included on the travel team to turn him against the program? Seems far fetched, until you realize Cougs has done this before. Did Cougs find a way to get back at the coach who constantly tried to hold him accountaable for the 1st time in his life, and benched him for the 2nd half of his senior year? Did Cougs use his natural charm to talk Ryan into exagerating the truth? Did Gina Cougill continue her habit of attacking her sons coach, just as she did at Iowa, by manipulating Brooke Bross into filing a complaint?
This all seems a bit out there, until you compare it to what is being alledged, which is that Wardle was a bully and a monster to Ryan Bross, but only when BC was watching, and never when any other players, former players, media members, or coaches from other programs were watching. Yes, that latter is the scenario here that is far-fetched.
|
|
|
Post by thetulsawarrior on May 5, 2013 8:46:27 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Nix on May 5, 2013 13:22:38 GMT -6
One question I continue to run through my head is, if Bross had it so bad, why didn't he transfer out at semester break? This is what I keep wondering, I don't get it. He was a walk on the way it was. He could have quit the team like Kam did. He could have left at semester. But he didn't. So the way I see it, if any of this is true, he clearly wanted it to continue and had no problem with it. I'd believe the Cougill getting in his ear scenario.
|
|
|
Post by stillaphoenixphan on May 5, 2013 14:17:43 GMT -6
One question I continue to run through my head is, if Bross had it so bad, why didn't he transfer out at semester break? This is what I keep wondering, I don't get it. He was a walk on the way it was. He could have quit the team like Kam did. He could have left at semester. But he didn't. So the way I see it, if any of this is true, he clearly wanted it to continue and had no problem with it. I'd believe the Cougill getting in his ear scenario. I'm thinking this is very possible. Cougill is charming and has been in plenty of trouble but always talked his way out of it or left the school. Also some times when you stretch the truth it takes on a life of its own.
|
|
|
Post by Nix on May 5, 2013 14:40:42 GMT -6
This is what I keep wondering, I don't get it. He was a walk on the way it was. He could have quit the team like Kam did. He could have left at semester. But he didn't. So the way I see it, if any of this is true, he clearly wanted it to continue and had no problem with it. I'd believe the Cougill getting in his ear scenario. I'm thinking this is very possible. Cougill is charming and has been in plenty of trouble but always talked his way out of it or left the school. Also some times when you stretch the truth it takes on a life of its own. It's just beyond my comprehension as to why a 22 year old kid and his mother would find amusement in attempting to wreck a public college's basketball program.
|
|
|
Post by gbbrl97 on May 5, 2013 19:00:39 GMT -6
Tulsa......Great comic strip.....The youth of today had better get it together. You don't get an award for just showing up.
I wonder if anyone has any insight on what the Cougill situation was when he was at Iowa and if there are any parallels with the BW controversy here at GB. It almost sounds like Cougs is charming enough to be a svengali-like figure to a naive freshman like Bross.......
|
|
|
Post by thetulsawarrior on May 5, 2013 20:28:39 GMT -6
I really don't know what the truth is in all this. What I do know is as a manager when I hire I check backgrounds looking for red flags. All the stuff that has been posted will not go away and I would ask some serious questions. Some employers wouldn't bother if they saw just one red flag. The application would go in the reject file. Since Wardle is more established he is likely to get more of a break on this front.
Looking back on some of the game videos Bross looked involved on the sidelines to the very end of the season. When was he told he wasn't going to be given a scholarship? Once Coug came back from his suspension his on court performance had me scratch my head a number of times. I think all sides will agree the team seemed to have a developing cancer as the season played out.
The letter of intent announced today by a pretty solid player is a good sign for the coaching staff. He comes from a nationally recognized prep school with a strong basketball tradition. He was coached by a former Chicago high school legend.
Like I said before -- the only winners in all this will be the attorneys who get paid. The biggest disappointment during this process for me is when one of the players went public before the findings of the investigation. It's not fair to either side to try this is the media. Once that happen it pushed the story viral in a negative way for the kid, the school and the coach. The biggest achievement yet in that young man's life. Where were his parents and what was his attorney thinking? You have time to talk and have your say but talking when he did was a mistake.
This should be an interesting week.
I remember interviewing a guy on death row years ago. He maintained throughout the interview that he never killed anyone. At the end of the interview I shook his hand and wished him justice. It was the first time I broke through the BS with him. I'm afraid we'll never have one of those moments with this situation.
|
|
|
Post by Fanforever on May 6, 2013 7:10:58 GMT -6
I wanted to vent a bit about Little Rob D. as he has really focused on the negative aspect throughout this investigation. I do understand that sensationalism is what sells and they need to sell some papers. However, I believe he has really shown his true colors on the GB program. If you remember he wrote an article on the low attendance and that they should play the games at the Kress center instead of focusing on the team and reasons to come out and watch them.
Then today Little Rob D's article on the new recruit starts off with the "in the midst of the investigation" really!! Then he wants to focus on what the players former coach said instead of talking about the exciting news of a new recruit.
I know that Little Rob D. reads this board as a couple of years ago at the Steak Fry he admitted it. Also, if you have not noticed some of his article ideas have come from this board.
NOw onto the investigation, I agree there are no winners in this at all and do not understand why the Bross family sent the letter to the PG when they said they did not want to try this in the public, when in fact that is what they did.
For what it is worth, I know a person that was a year ahead of Ryan in highschool and was told he was not the toughest kid in the school (not the exact way it was put) but I am trying to be nice. Unlike Little Rob D.
|
|