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Post by shooting the J on Mar 19, 2012 20:00:11 GMT -6
It's been tweeted by numerous media members that Butler will be joining the A-10 conference. The move is expected to take place after next season. Obviously, huge loss for the conference to lose its premier member.
The good news? This eliminates the only major competition Green Bay would have for the conference title in the 2013-14 season.
Who would you like to see replace Butler?
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Post by shooting the J on Mar 20, 2012 6:08:34 GMT -6
Here's Rob Demovsky's column on the Butler move. Obviously this is a negative for the conference. However, I thought this part of the column was over-sensationalistic and is devoid of fact: Whether it's Oakland and/or someone else, the minute the Horizon League loses Butler, it becomes no better than the Summit League, the conference it tried so hard to distance itself from.If you replace Butler with Oakland this past season, the HL finishes with the same RPI rank. What about the loss of Oakland to the Summit? Is Rob aware the Summit also just lost it's premier member, Oral Roberts? It is also losing some of its Dakota schools to the Big Sky. That league might disband. If it tries to stay, it will need to merge with the lowly Great West League. With Butler leaving, the HL won't catch the MVC, but it will remain well ahead of the MAC and Summit League in the mid-west conference pecking order. Other HL schools have benefited in recruited from the rise of Butler, and are poised to bring their programs to a new level, including Green Bay. The HL has been competing in the conference supremacy with the CAA the few years, and the CAA will likely lose some schools to the A-10 also.
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Post by gbbrl97 on Mar 20, 2012 6:23:50 GMT -6
This stinks for the conference RPI by losing their bell cow (Butler), but it's not like Butler was the only team standing in the way of GB and the NCAA's.....Although BW got this team playing better later this past season with nearly everyone coming back next yeay and will only lose one senior (Cougill) after next season, GB still has problems winning on the road.....with nearly every team in the HL. Fix that problem (push for .500 ball on the road for starters), and lose no more than 1 or 2 games at home, then we could be in a position to win the HL or push for an NIT bid.
It would also be in UDM's best interest NOT to block a move to invite Oakland to the HL. We need all the higher RPI teams from the Summit that we can get. Would we only stop at one invite, or would the HL try to add combination of IUPUI (have an HL school from Indy), UMKC (get KC in the HL's geographical profile), and/or Oral Roberts (one of the best teams in the Summit the past several years)??
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Post by phearthephoenix on Mar 20, 2012 10:46:48 GMT -6
I think its pretty obvious that the HL should invite Oakland. I'd be fine with stopping at 10 teams again, that way there is less of the financial pie that needs to be shared
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Post by shooting the J on Mar 20, 2012 11:43:36 GMT -6
It would also be in UDM's best interest NOT to block a move to invite Oakland to the HL. We need all the higher RPI teams from the Summit that we can get. Would we only stop at one invite, or would the HL try to add combination of IUPUI (have an HL school from Indy), UMKC (get KC in the HL's geographical profile), and/or Oral Roberts (one of the best teams in the Summit the past several years)?? Oral Roberts is moving to the Sun Belt Conference next year, replacing Denver, which is moving to the WAC. The WAC had just 7 members. I like the idea of UMKC. Even though they haven't been successful, they have that potential. They have an athletics budget that would fit into the upper half of the HL. KC would give the league another fairly large city, and one that produces quality basketball talent. If we added UMKC as part of a 12 team conference, then the next addition should be new D1 Nebraska-Omaha. It's a huge, basketball only school in that states biggest city. It has the potential to carry a huge athletics budget. I'm also fine with staying with the ten team model.
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Post by phearthephoenix on Mar 20, 2012 23:00:56 GMT -6
Not to nitpick, but ORU is actually moving to the truly awful Southland Conference, which was ranked 28th in conference RPI this year. Its a move for purely travel reasons, they should dominate that league in basketball.
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Post by phearthephoenix on Mar 21, 2012 10:02:08 GMT -6
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Mar 22, 2012 10:40:00 GMT -6
If Butler leaves the league it no doubt leaves a big hole to fill. I think the league and the member teams need to look closely at themselves as they try to fill the gap.
As for potential member schools I hope the league doesn’t just go for the usual suspects. My thoughts on Summit members/usual suspects:
Oakland: Best choice based on overall success and fan base of their hoops program.
IUPUI: Has turned out some NBA players and is in a good sports market. Yet for the number of students they have the fan support is weak the facility is small.
IPFW: Natural market for the HL but a pretty weak history, financial commitment to sports and fan interest.
UMKC: No history and no success to bring to the league. Plus it is far away. Angres Thorpe has shown that you don’t have to have a presence in KC to recruit the area.
Nebraska Omaha: Will be a 3rd tier team in the state behind Nebraska and Creighton. The hoops facility looks nice but is small. They don’t have a proven track record of winning. Like UMKC it is kind on the out skirts of the HL footprint.
The bottom line is I am not really a fan of any of those additions. Also, I don’t want to see the Horizon go for Chicago State with their lack of financial commitment. I don’t want to see the league go for Eastern or Western Illinois and their lack of success.
I know the teams I am about to mention may not be interested but this is where I think the league needs to step up. They need to find away to attract a solid men’s hoops team or one that has the ability to be. Here are the teams I would look at in no particular order:
Belmont: Like some of the other summit teams they are on the edge of the footprint. However, I like that they win, that they have a good facility and that they have some big time donors to make it work.
Robert Morris: I think the Pittsburgh market is a closer fit for the HL than KC or Omaha. I don’t see great facilities here but I see a team that has been on a winning uptick and might want to upgrade leagues.
Murray State: Again on the edge of the footprint but I would try to sell them on the HL being a better league and giving them more hoops exposure.
Duquesne: On the surface it is a step down from the A10. With Butler coming in it makes it even harder on the mid tier A10 teams to dance. I would guess some of their teams in the last five years would have done well in the HL. Try to sell them on being the big fish instead of the little fish. Plus I would prefer to add Pittsburgh as a market; it is much closer on the Eastern Edge of the HL footprint.
DePaul: The answer is always no unless you ask. The money and prestige would be big hits from the Big East. This just seems like a program that needs a change of scenery. Get them in the HL and let them taste success. Unlikely I know but again I would at least want the league executives to be thinking big.
As for looking in the mirror, GB really needs to do that as well. They don’t have a lot of revenue sports and some of the potential ones flounder. Volleyball has had one winning season under the same coach for the last 15 years. Women’s soccer has been struggling for a long time and this regime is in the middle of four straight losing seasons. I know money is an issue but GB needs to decide what it wants to be. Raise the student fees or get the donors rattled up but they need to infuse new life into the department. If you can’t get donors or support for the potential revenue sports then get it for teams we don’t have that could make money like men’s baseball, hockey or football. I see semi-pro/minor league teams doing pretty well with those teams in the GB market. Maybe adding those sports opens doors for GB.
Bothof came from SLU. SLU wanted to be in the MVC. Maybe GB and SLU should work together to show they create value for the MVC to expand to 12 teams. Instead of just going with the HL flow maybe GB should be looking at how to upgrade on its own.
I am just shooting from the hip a little bit but the HL and GB can choose to be reactive or proactive and I know I like proactive a lot better.
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hoops
Sophomore
Posts: 208
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Post by hoops on Mar 22, 2012 15:49:30 GMT -6
I'm betting that Butler isn't long for the HL, but I wouldn't assume the jump to the A-10 is a done deal. There are internal issues/questions, besides conference affiliation that need to be worked through before they will make a decision/jump leagues.
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Post by shooting the J on Mar 23, 2012 5:54:08 GMT -6
Thanks for stopping in Big D, I know you've really researched this. Who is plan B if Oakland gets blocked again? Is there any truth to the Evansville rumors?
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Mar 23, 2012 6:56:06 GMT -6
Vince Gill and the Curb family (music recording artists and current nascar sponsor) have donated a lot of money to belmont.
You make my point for me about the money distribution. Make it worth while for Butler to stay or to entice a bigger program to enter. I said the league needs to look at the way it does business. They can't do the same old same old to attain and attract top talent. Go and show Duquesne as an example that the money is just as good if they win and the chance to win is much better. I just can't stand the thought of only looking to add summit teams because they would jump at the chance.
As for the baseball issue, I can understand the need for a team. Yet hoops is the engine that drives the horizon league bus and should be the focus in adding the next team. Also to my point, if baseball is important on a financial level for the HL then show the HL teams that don't have baseball now why they should add it to keep the competitive balance in hoops (ie the money maker) at the appropriate level.
As for the distance issue, all of these towns are close by flight from every HL team (two hours or less). By bus they are some long trips. Pittsburgh is 2 hours from Cleveland and certainly more a part of the landscape than Omaha or Kansas City. Also closer than the schools in TN/KY I mentioned. It is 13 hours from Cleveland to Omaha but only 8 to Nashville. It is 9+ from GB to Omaha and 10+ from GB to KC. My point is that if the league is adding long trips look for the teams that bring the most to the hoops table.
As for GB dropping down. I wouldn't like it because the Summit is more expensive to travel in. For an AD like GB that's not going to help. I will say that I don't always feel the GB athletic department is committed to winning across all sports. They let some teams flounder and on the revenue sports they don't have the same budget despite competitive results. If there was a league to travel in that would reduce costs then GB should entertain that given their lack of finances on some sports.
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Post by PantherU on Mar 24, 2012 12:45:36 GMT -6
2 points. 1. The HL will not be able to expand without adding a school with baseball. The schools with baseball will not vote to add a program that does not offer the sport. That isn't a guess. I have heard that from 2 different HL schools. If those 2 different HL schools don't include Milwaukee, add a third. We will not vote for it unless we had an invite from the B1G to be an associate member in baseball only, which is about as likely as our impending membership in the ACC. 2. Travel is a much bigger deal than you are making it. You don't just travel for men's basketball. You travel to these places for all sports. I don't know of many HL teams that allow any of their sports besides basketball to fly to games. Almost all of them have to bus everywhere. I don't think most of the HL schools could afford to increase their budgets enough to fly all of their sports to TN or PA. If we increased the HL by several teams and could break up the conference into N/S or E/W divisions it might be doable but I don't see the HL adding a single team that far away from the rest of the conference when a more logical choice like Oakland is right in front of us. Oakland spends significantly more on athletics than Belmont. Both teams have very similar RPI averages over the last 4 years. Oakland is a no brainer compared to Belmont when you add in the differences in travel costs. This much is obvious. I've been poking around my connections at Detroit, and it seems to them that the new university president is smart enough to understand that adding Oakland is the best thing for them.
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Post by PantherU on Mar 24, 2012 12:51:08 GMT -6
I've now written three pieces on Butler's departure for PantherU. One regards Milwaukee's individual options, both reasonable and far-fetched. The second looks at the Horizon League without Butler, and then looks at other schools to possibly add. The third, just published, looks at the recent rumors that the A10 is adding more than Butler, and what those other additions could do to affect the HL (no, I don't have other HL schools going to the A10). 1. Butler Out, Milwaukee should follow2. Without Butler, few options on the Horizon3. A10 Moves could affect Horizon beyond ButlerIt looks like Charlotte is on their way out of the A10, which would make Butler's addition bring the conference to 13. This makes me thing the A10 is adding an odd number of schools (besides Butler). I see two scenarios, if we can assume Butler is in and Charlotte is out. 1. VCU 2. VCU, George Mason and Creighton These are the two scenarios I see playing out. ODU could be in there for Creighton, but I think the Bluejays are the fourth addition. I then ramble and have some fun to see what the 10th team in the MVC would be.
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Post by shooting the J on Mar 25, 2012 16:58:32 GMT -6
I've now written three pieces on Butler's departure for PantherU. One regards Milwaukee's individual options, both reasonable and far-fetched. The second looks at the Horizon League without Butler, and then looks at other schools to possibly add. The third, just published, looks at the recent rumors that the A10 is adding more than Butler, and what those other additions could do to affect the HL (no, I don't have other HL schools going to the A10). 1. Butler Out, Milwaukee should followI really have to take issue with so many of the things you've written. First: The result of that number crunching is staggering. The Horizon League goes from a 10-15 conference in the RPI to an 18-23 conference, putting it on par with this year's MAAC, Sun Belt, A-Sun, OVC, Patriot League, and SoCon. That's not on par with the Summit, who would certainly have finished above the Horizon had we not been helped by Butler (in Butler's worst season since 2004-05, no less).If you replace Butler this past season with Oakland, the HL doesn't slide a single spot in RPI ranking. To suggest this conference will slide to 18-23 is devoid of math. In fact, anyone with any knowledge of this conference can easily see that the 2013-14 version, even with Oakland instead of Butler, will have a HIGHER RPI than it did this season. The freshman and sophomore talent in this conference this season is the best it's ever been. Will it be easier to win the Horizon League Tournament? Absolutely. Milwaukee has been eliminated from the last three conference tournaments by Butler, and would have made it to the NCAA Tournament last season had Butler not been in their wayIf Butler wasn't in the conference last year, CSU would have won the conference outright and hosted the HL tourney. So say that Milwaukee stays put. We will definitely enjoy some success. In most sports, our only competition is Butler. They are the school that's stopping us from winning the McCafferty Trophy annually. But this is about men's basketball. And without Butler, men's basketball is gonna suck.The conference has just 2 revenue, relevant sports, and Milwaukee has been dominated by Green Bay in one of them (WBB) so badly it's pathetic. That will remain unchanged when Butler leaves. As for MBB, other teams have been raising there level of play and recruitment. Even though you claim you want GB and Milwaukee to have a friendly rivalry, you refuse to acknowledge the rapid upward direction of our program. Our outstanding facilities, combined with an energetic young coach, has pushed our recruiting to a new level. CSU is recruiting better. Valpo has improved immensely since joining the HL. WSU has went through a talent drain because of a coaching change, but will be solid again next year. Oakland will benefit greatly from an affiliation to the HL, and is already a stronger program than Milwaukee. Prepare yourselves. The Panthers may go to the NCAA Tournament as much as 50% of the time if Butler leaves.Wow. You should seek a mental health professional. Seriously. Move down to the Summit League - this may seem like an idiotic move to some, but it's definitely not the drop you think it is. For one, the reason the Summit has done so well in the RPI this season is that it dropped Centenary and Southern Utah, teams that are so far out of the footprint and just plain suck. Travel is easier in the Summit than it was before. Southern Utah was part of the Summit this year. They'll join the Big Sky next year. NDSU and SDSU are set to join the Big Sky the year after. I'm not sure what you would be expecting to join in that conference. They lose Oral Roberts and will likely lose Oakland. IUPUI will likely bolt to the HL if Milwaukee left. Your new Summit would include IPFW, Western Illinois, ND, SD, Nebraska-Omaha, and UMKC. You wouldn't even have an automatic NCAA birth. Nice move. Milwaukee is lucky to be in the HL. Enjoy it.
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Post by gbbrl97 on Mar 26, 2012 6:28:37 GMT -6
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