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Post by gbbrl97 on Jun 4, 2020 7:48:25 GMT -6
I would like to have RMU in the HL, but I don't see this happening. They would be a better fit in the MAAC. They would also be closer to most of the schools there anyway.
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tdef
New Member
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Post by tdef on Jun 4, 2020 8:02:10 GMT -6
Wright Stste right now below the sporting threshold to remain D1, going to petition NCAA, to see if they can remain D1.
They leave Horizon league, that would be a big blow.
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Post by phoenixphan87 on Jun 4, 2020 8:37:00 GMT -6
Wright Stste right now below the sporting threshold to remain D1, going to petition NCAA, to see if they can remain D1. They leave Horizon league, that would be a big blow. Wright State will attempt to get a waiver- if they do not, they will add another sport (something with very low costs). They are not going anywhere. |
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Post by phearthephoenix on Jun 4, 2020 8:56:53 GMT -6
Will the HL be playing a 22-game conference schedule? If not, what is the point of adding a 12th team, just to get to an even number? Switching to a different scheduling format where the top teams don't play as many of the bottom teams? Conference USA is already ditching this idea after just a couple of seasons.
The HL is just splitting the NCAA distributions even thinner for each school.
I get that the league has always been set on getting to 12 and Robert Morris is about the best possible (realistic) candidate to join at this point. Maybe it's about a quick cash infusion since RMU will have to pay an entry fee? NKU paid $1.15 million to join in 2015, I'm not sure how that money gets divided but that would be about $100,000 per school assuming each of the 10 current members plus the league office get an equal share.
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Post by Heartbroken Phoenix Fan on Jun 4, 2020 9:05:59 GMT -6
Will the HL be playing a 22-game conference schedule? If not, what is the point of adding a 12th team, just to get to an even number? Switching to a different scheduling format where the top teams don't play as many of the bottom teams? Conference USA is already ditching this idea after just a couple of seasons. The HL is just splitting the NCAA distributions even thinner for each school. I get that the league has always been set on getting to 12 and Robert Morris is about the best possible (realistic) candidate to join at this point. Maybe it's about a quick cash infusion since RMU will have to pay an entry fee? NKU paid $1.15 million to join in 2015, I'm not sure how that money gets divided but that would be about $100,000 per school assuming each of the 10 current members plus the league office get an equal share. From a fan standpoint this would be a big get. Robert Morris has had some limited success in the tourney when they make it and knocked off Kentucky in the NIT. I don’t care too much about the splitting the funding for NCAA tourney. That clearly doesn’t help GB too much the way it is and I’d rather raise the prestige of the conference. Otherwise I’d be fine booting IUPUI. They look like a worse add than Youngstown. |
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Post by phoenixphan87 on Jun 4, 2020 9:48:15 GMT -6
I would propose an East/West split maybe looking something like:
GB, Mil, UIC, IPFW, Det Oak
WSU, NKU, IUPUI, CSU, YSU, RMU
Play everyone in your division twice and everyone else once= 16 game (like the MAC used to do)
At that point you lock seeding for Horizon League Tournament- Then have the CUSA style 2-4 crossover games to get to 18 or 20. Match ups will get top teams vs top teams for a 2nd time- same for the bottom feeders.
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Post by phearthephoenix on Jun 11, 2020 12:34:20 GMT -6
If Jon Rothstein is right it looks like RMU is joining the league and joining for this upcoming season
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Post by gbbrl97 on Jun 11, 2020 14:17:13 GMT -6
Solid addition to the HL. Interesting to see why they chose the HL over the MAAC. If the HL goes into a 2-division format, the OH and MI that would comprise an eastern division schools are closer to Pittsburgh, than most of the MAAC schools that are mostly in NYC, NJ, and CT.
Hope the HL has 20 conference games in next year's slate (2 versus all teams in your division, 8 home and home games versus 4 of the teams in the other division and 2 single games versus the last 2 teams in the other division). Lessens the pressure in scheduling the NC games and the likelihood that GB schedules Rockford College, Lakeland, and St. Mary's (MN) as regular season opponents again.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Jun 12, 2020 11:16:05 GMT -6
My thought about divisions is that is great for every sport not called basketball. If there is no money or interest in some sports than by all means keep things close by. There is no sense in sending Robert Morris soccer to Green Bay if you don't need to.
For basketball my hope is for a 20 game league schedule. Play everyone once. Play your "rival" twice. Play the other 8 teams that most closely mirror your program based on some reasonable preseason analytics. In 2019-20 terms give WSU a second game with RMU but not IUPUI. Give IUPUI a second game with UDM but not NKU. Maybe doing that actually helps analytics and fan interest.
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Post by phearthephoenix on Jun 13, 2020 8:02:37 GMT -6
The YSU beat writer is saying the HL will likely be playing 22 conference games. Will be interesting to see what that means for GB’s non conference schedule this year as I believe we’re already up to 11 known opponents
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Post by gbbrl97 on Jun 13, 2020 9:12:15 GMT -6
Could the HL petition the NCAA to include the games already scheduled and not have to cancel 2 opponents? If the HL does have 22 conference games that would bring GBs schedule total to 33 games. There aren’t any D2 or D3 opponents that we can simply drop. Or does the HL maybe hold off on a 22 game slate until ‘21-‘22?
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Jun 13, 2020 12:03:59 GMT -6
Playing 22 conference games assumes the extra 2 conference games are better games than a member can or will schedule on their own.
With 22 conference games and 1 or 2 Summit Challenge games that leaves each program in a position to only book 7 or 8 games on their own. A couple buy games and MTE tournament and the schedule is almost done. I see why that is appealing to some.
I am on the other end of the spectrum though. Raising the bar for the league is going to partially come from what teams can do in their non conference schedule. If the ability to schedule more metric favorable games is limited then that limits the success of the league as a whole.
Think of the teams that play multiple buy games. Their non conference metrics will be trash. Then playing more league games makes our members play more games against lower rated teams. That isn't smart.
Play 20 league games that make sense plus 1 or 2 Summit Challenge games and let programs schedule 9 or 10 games on their own. This is the time to get creative not restrictive in my opinion.
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Post by Heartbroken Phoenix Fan on Jun 13, 2020 13:51:46 GMT -6
I agree with the Wright St dude unfortunately.
Whatever prevents these teams from playing regular season non d-1 games I’m all for it.
The unfortunate reality is the Horizon will never be a two bid league again save for once every ten years where one team might get lucky beat a power 5 or two and go undefeated in conference or close to it. That said we saw that with GB in 2014 and Valpo in 2016 and both were still last four out.
Scheduling the summit league challenge and adding more conference games is better than playing Stout every year.
There are a lot of people that don’t start paying attention to GB basketball until after the Packers are done anyway. Let’s keep the hardcore fans happy with actual d-1 games to see.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Jun 13, 2020 14:38:52 GMT -6
In the last 10 years HL members have been tasked with scheduling 11 to 14 non conference games per year.
With a 20 game league slate and the Summit Challenge they will be tasked with scheduling 9 or 10 non conference games.
I don't disagree with the sentiment that the league office or AD's would want 22 league games.
Every program has been able to get 9 or 10 D1 games on their own every year. Let's not overreact and go to a 22 game slate right away that limits the upward mobility of the league.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Nov 17, 2021 11:14:12 GMT -6
Yesterday some news broke about a former Horizon League member, Loyola, moving to the A10. Which is great for them. They made their final four run and the A10 conference is the home of several little guys that made big runs like VCU, George Mason and Davidson. It was also the former home of Butler after they left the Horizon.
People should take note of how Loyola, a bottom dweller in the Horizon, has made it to the A10 in less than a decade.
On the facility side they renovated the Gentile Center. It isn't big but is nicely done. Back in the day it was just a massive wall of fold out bleachers. Now it is a compact seating bowling perfectly wrapping the court. As an added bonus the student section takes up several lower level sections along the sideline across from the benches. Think Breslin or Cameron Indoor. Also they built the Norville Center which looks like a pretty impressive home to student athletes.
I looked at their schedule in 5 of the last 6 years. I skipped the Covid year.
This year they play at DePaul, at Vanderbilt, in Atlantis main field and one non D1 game.
In 2019 they played Vanderbilt in Arizona, in the Cayman Island Classic and one non D1 game.
In 2018 they played at Maryland, in the Fort Myers Classic and one non D1 game.
In 2017 they played at Florida, a neutral tournament in Savannah and one non D1 game.
In 2016 they played at NC State, in the Paradise Jam Virgin Islands and 2 non D1 games.
Here is the point. The 2016 and 2017 seasons were before their final four trip, while the 2018 season was their final four year. Long before anyone gave a care about Loyola basketball outside of Sister Jean and few message board people they had the vision to schedule better. They don't play a lot of games for money. They don't play as the undercard for preseason tournaments and they primarily only play D1 teams.
On the spending side their men's basketball budget was $4,400,000 in the most recent reporting. That has them in the top 110 schools and is way more than double what they spent in their Horizon League days. They aren't doing this with huge ticket sales. In the final four year they averaged 2405. In the two fan years since they did 3712 and 3215. This year they have ranged from 2300 to 3300 in three games so far. If they don't have a huge ticket revenue and they don't play a lot of buy games, where did the 4.4 million come from then? Donors, institutional support and now their final four money which they will likely be giving up to move to the A10.
What does Loyola going to the A10 have to do with the Horizon League or GB? They made the commitment to building, spending and scheduling to be rise above their level. So for any fans around the Horizon thinking they should be called up to the MVC I will ask, what as an athletic department and university are you willing to do differently than what you are doing now?
This is pretty simple to me. Green Bay or any program in this league could get the call. Why is Kansas City getting an MVC look? Because they are selling a vision of putting shovels in the ground and improving their facilities to match their market. For Green Bay they have pretty good facilities. However, GB can't rest on that. They haven't done any major facility improvements for basketball in over a decade. The scheduling was atrocious in the Darner era. Some aspects have improved under Will Ryan such as the neutral site tournaments being added but the buy game situation has to be fixed ASAP. If anyone is serious about winning the formula is clear. You have to spend money to make money. As ticket sales and donations work to come back, while enrollment increases to grow fees, the university has to fill the gap and invest some serious money in this basketball program if they really want it to be part of the marketing of the university and a meaningful part of the campus culture.
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