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Post by fansincebuss on Apr 9, 2014 21:42:51 GMT -6
What about B.J. LaRue and Jerry Carstenson? I remember the last time the conference tournament was at Brown County Arena and they got to the championship game. Maybe didn't score as much because Coach Heideman's teams played slow, but I bet both were 1,000 point scorers and highly skilled players. Good players but not top ten all time. Terry Schott was a friend of mine. He would have been a great 3 point shooter had there been a 3 point line. Terry was also a good player but not top ten. It was a different time.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Apr 11, 2014 18:30:40 GMT -6
Ben Johnson, Gary G., BJ LaRue and Jerry Carstenson were all solid players. However, they are not even in the same planet as Alec. Alec doesn't have a dominate personality and maybe that went over to games and frustrated people but he put together a really nice career despite every game being the biggest focus of the other team on both ends. That says something about his skill.
Alec signing with Billy Duffy says something as well. Duffy just landed Andrew Wiggins. I talked to John Hammond from the Milwaukee Bucks before Alec's junior year. He had some interesting insight about Alec and a lot of other things too. After Duffy was in Milwaukee trying to negotiate an extension for Brandon Jennings he was supposed to GB to watch Alec. John said something to the effect of I doubt Duffy is going to waste time with a guy if he doesn't think will be in the league.
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truth
New Member
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Post by truth on Apr 16, 2014 15:12:38 GMT -6
I place Grzesk above Brown for the simple reason that Grzesk won BIG GAMES with his defense. He had his best games aginst future NBA superstars.
Jason Kidd shot 6 of 17 I think. He did about exactly the same to Glen Robinson that year, and guarded Michael Finley in the game against UW and forced a 3-for-13 and about 7 turnovers. Remember the charge call next year against Cuonzo Martin and Purdue, but that's another story.
Ben Johnson is in the Phoenix Hall of Fame, and for me doesn't have the memorable big-game defensive stops that Gary had, but was Tony's running mate. He's a reach for 10 Best, maybe even 15 best. I would maybe raise his rank if you go by winning, and how a guy contributed to his team winning.
I'd even take B.J. LaRue over Brown in one category, an important one. LaRue was a relatively slow-footed guard for a mediocre teams but he starred big in the biggest game. When he was a junior and GB hosted the tournament because it was their turn, they had to beat a Detroit Titans team in the semifinals. They were ranked number 17 or 22 and had Rashaard Phillips and maybe even that 6-7 guy who got drafted, Johnson or Jackson, and LaRue had 25 points in a low scoring game. LaRue basically carried GB to the big upset.
What was Brown's big game or big moment for the Phoenix?
Brown is a good player, a unique skills for 7-1. I totally agree that he had a nice career, improved greatly, played almost every game without injury, posted impressive stats.
But because they didn't go to the NCAAs, played terribly in the NIT (him especially), didn't make a single Horizon League final in his four years, some of that has to lower his grade. And it keeps him out of my all-time Phoenix Starting Five and also the second five. I think Ron Ripley and Nate Barnes and maybe even Dennis Woelffer would start ahead of him. Here's another one, If you could start the 6-4 Center from GB's 1990 or 91 NIT and NCCA team Dean VanderPlas against Brown, I would bet that the Dough Boy probably would have scored on him, too, and darn sure kept him at least 10 feet away from the hoop and any rebounds. I'm half serious. I think Dean's linebacker style would prevail in a one on one matchup.
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Post by gbnix11 on Apr 16, 2014 15:50:32 GMT -6
Well thank God you aren't in charge of putting any real life teams together then. Because not to have him in the all time starting 5 is a joke. And not in the 2nd 5 is just laughable.
Do you understand the concept of game planning and schemes? Because that's all that teams did against Alec because they knew if he played well, GB would probably win. It's a lot easier to double and triple team a center than a point guard so trying to stop Keifer like that isn't really plausible. If GB had one or two wings that could actually shoot, those double teams would have been a lot less frequent.
To your point about the NIT game, if Wardle wouldn't have freaked out and tried to run with Belmont without our best transition player and would have just told the guards to slow down and work the ball into the post it would have been a completely different outcome. Alec got one post touch in the 1st half (which he scored on) and was visibly frustrated by the lack of touches.
You are right that he doesn't have a big time game that came in a big time win, but honestly how many big time wins does GB have in their D1 history? 5 or 6? He still had 22 14 and 5 vs Marquette. 19 and 8 against Wisconsin. Big games vs Butler. And that Ohio road trip this season where he was POW was huge at the time and basically clinched the regular season title.
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Post by shooting the J on Apr 16, 2014 17:56:35 GMT -6
Greszk is easily the most overrated player in Phoenix history. He didn't shut down Jason Kidd, because Kidd wasn't even a scorer. Kidd struggled because of the pace of play, not because of the defender. Green Bay took away the transition game, and Eric Le Duc shut down Cal's real scorer, Lamond Murray. That forced Kidd to take shots he wouldn't normally attempt. I think Gary is developing into a great coach, but he was a defensive specialist and a major offensive liability on a great team anchored by the great Jeff Nordgaard. Grezsk is not as good as Jordan Fouse.
Brown also regularly shut down the man he was guarding, along with closing down the entire lane. Green Bay was 16th in the nation in defensive efficiency, and Brown was a huge part of that.
Brown would have dominated VanderPlas. Brown would simply shoot over him from the perimeter. Brown doesn't need to post up to be successful. Brown would simply use his length to defend and block Vander Plas in the post. I mean this as no disrespect to Dean , he was a blast to watch.
I can understand not being impressed with Browns offense, as we wasn't very efficient. He was double teamed in the post not because he dominated there but because he struggled to pass out of the post. His offense knocks him down to 4th on my Phoenix all-time D1 list.
Brown helped the Phoenix win a conference championship and beat Virginia this year. It wasn't his fault that he was part of young rebuilding teams after Kowalczyk left the program bare after his departure. Brown helped bring the program back to prominence, that means something to me.
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Post by shooting the J on Apr 16, 2014 18:23:18 GMT -6
Also, just a reminder to everyone to be respectful when disagreeing with another poster. We're all Phoenix fans and friends, so try not to be condescending. Also, someone please remind me to do the same
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Post by stillaphoenixphan on Apr 16, 2014 21:39:31 GMT -6
Greszk is easily the most overrated player in Phoenix history. He didn't shut down Jason Kidd, because Kidd wasn't even a scorer. Kidd struggled because of the pace of play, not because of the defender. Green Bay took away the transition game, and Eric Le Duc shut down Cal's real scorer, Lamond Murray. That forced Kidd to take shots he wouldn't normally attempt. I think Gary is developing into a great coach, but he was a defensive specialist and a major offensive liability on a great team anchored by the great Jeff Nordgaard. Grezsk is not as good as Jordan Fouse. Brown also regularly shut down the man he was guarding, along with closing down the entire lane. Green Bay was 16th in the nation in defensive efficiency, and Brown was a huge part of that. Brown would have dominated VanderPlas. Brown would simply shoot over him from the perimeter. Brown doesn't need to post up to be successful. Brown would simply use his length to defend and block Vander Plas in the post. I mean this as no disrespect to Dean , he was a blast to watch. I can understand not being impressed with Browns offense, as we wasn't very efficient. He was double teamed in the post not because he dominated there but because he struggled to pass out of the post. His offense knocks him down to 4th on my Phoenix all-time D1 list. Brown helped the Phoenix win a conference championship and beat Virginia this year. It wasn't his fault that he was part of young rebuilding teams after Kowalczyk left the program bare after his departure. Brown helped bring the program back to prominence, that means something to me. With out Brown against Valpo we did great. They scored inside anytime they wanted to. Alec was not 100% since he dislocated his shoulder and other teams were still afraid of him. When the opponenet doubles you (and yes some triple teams) every game that shows RESPECT. He got that from every team he played. I put him right after Tony and Jeff. After next year I may drop him to 4. Most of the other players that have been talked about had skills but were not the complete package. AB may not be the complete package but he's as close as we've come in may years. To have him and Keifer healthy on the floor was great to watch. When either one was hurt it was ugly. I wish Alec well and healthy and think he will be a good role player in the NBA.
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Post by gbnix11 on May 12, 2014 11:22:55 GMT -6
Alec will be one of the 60 players at the NBA Draft Combine this week in Chicago. Chad Ford just tweeted out the official list. Great opportunity for Alec to show out in front of all the NBA Execs.
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Post by stillaphoenixphan on May 12, 2014 18:21:40 GMT -6
Alec will be one of the 60 players at the NBA Draft Combine this week in Chicago. Chad Ford just tweeted out the official list. Great opportunity for Alec to show out in front of all the NBA Execs. Yes they talked about it on the 6 PM news tonight. Wtg Alec.
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Post by fansincebuss on May 15, 2014 11:30:36 GMT -6
Just a reminder, the NBA Draft Combine is being covered today and tomorrow on ESPN2. I just turned it on, not sure what I may have missed.
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Post by thetulsawarrior on May 15, 2014 16:36:12 GMT -6
This is the kind of off season discussion everyone wants not the BS that was going on last May. Brown's measurements at the NBA Combine -- 7 foot 1 1/4 without shoes. I think when he gets drafted they will let him play in shoes. I'll have to check. ;-)
Also today -- his shooting was lights out.
;-) /photo/1
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Post by stillaphoenixphan on May 15, 2014 21:32:04 GMT -6
From the GBPG. He was 50-for-68 overall from the field, including 18-for-25 from 3-point range and 21-for-25 on 15 footers. He tied for the most 3's of all the players at the NBA Combine. WTG Alec and very nice that Coach Wardle took 2 days or more of his time to support an explayer. I like his commitment to his players, it speaks strongly of GB. www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20140515/GPG020101/305150429/UWGB-s-Alec-Brown-stands-out-1st-day-NBA-combine"Comments from the combine." The Power Forwards and Centers This was a very skilled group of big men. Several bigs showed off strong shooting mechanics that could lead to a reliable outside jumper, including Cory Jefferson (Baylor) and Alex Kirk (New Mexico). Alec Brown (Green Bay) already has that consistency. This little-known 7-footer can really shoot the rockā¦ and that includes from long range. He shot an incredible 18-of-25 on spot-up NBA 3s.
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Post by stillaphoenixphan on May 16, 2014 20:07:49 GMT -6
So far this is all I've found on day 2 off the combine.
Winona-native Alec Brown held his own on the court. The Wisconsin-Green Bay product showcased his ability to run the floor and hit mid-range shots during his workout. He also picked up a nice block defending in the post in a 2-on-2 drill.
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Post by wiscosports on May 17, 2014 6:22:59 GMT -6
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Post by thetulsawarrior on May 17, 2014 7:07:51 GMT -6
I'm sure having a familiar face at the NBA Combine didn't hurt Alec's mindset. My bet is it was a calming influence -- a win, win for the player and the coach. Wardle is from the Chicago area and I'm sure was able to renew some valuable contacts. If Henry Uwadiae develops over the next few years Wardle and his staff will have one heck of a marketing argument. ;-)
FYI, in a little over a year my bet is Kiefer Sykes, Greg Mays and Alfonzo McKinnie will be getting a pay check for playing basketball. (NBA, D League or overseas)
One final -- what do you think Alec Brown's parents feel about the work Wardle and his staff have done with their son over the past four years?
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