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Post by bayballer on Mar 5, 2018 16:08:28 GMT -6
A few things about Motor City Madness. 1. That arena is apparently really nice. The reviews coming from those in Detroit are stellar. The league seems lucky to play in such a venue. 2. For those thinking that Olympia/LCA want the Big Ten Tournament you are probably right. However, it is rotating between Chicago and Indy for the next 4 years. So I can't see Motor City Madness going away because LCA has a better option for 2019. It might go away because of other reasons. 3. The same fans that want this moved to Indy are missing that Indy has the Big Ten tournament in 2 of the next 4 years. It can't be played at the State Fair grounds...why should IUPUI get an advantage. Plus that sight isn't part of the scene, there is nothing else to do around the Indy State Fair. At least in Detroit the arena is in a busy spot. I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens when this 5 year deal is up in 2020. I think the days of having the top seed host the tournament are gone, so as long as there aren't financial issues, I can't see the Horizon League wanting to leave Detroit. It would definitely be a bummer if the Big 10 swipes this venue from the Horizon League though.
The big problem for the Horizon League is that they don't really have a better venue to use. Like you mentioned, Indy is the most ideal option, but the Bankers Life Fieldhouse is already used by the Big 10 and there aren't any other nice arena's in Indy. Chicago is probably the best city to host as it is the most attractive "tourist" wise, but they don't really have the best arena situation either. The United Center is already used by the Big 10 (and it's probably to expensive for the Horizon League anyway), they have the Allstate Arena which DePaul played at until this season and Northwestern used it this year during their renovations (kind of old but still a decent arena). Another venue in Chicago is the Sears Center Arena which is where the Windy City bulls play (nice arena and not as big as an NBA arena which is good). The issue with those two options is that they are both about 30 miles outside the city, taking some of the specialty away from playing in Chicago. Honestly, I wouldn't be against the UIC pavilion hosting the tourney. Decent (but old) arena in the heart of downtown Chicago.
Other than Chicago, what other cities could host the tournament? Maybe Milwaukee can have it in the new Bucks arena, it's pretty far away from most of the schools though. Cleveland's Quicken Loans Arena is already being used by the MAC so that's not an option. All in all, I think having the tourney in Detroit is probably what's best. Its a really cool experience for the players/coaches and provides a great place to watch the games for fans, and the Motor City Madness branding is pretty cool. It's not the most centrally located city, but there are worse places it could be. Just wonder if they can keep hosting it there past 2020.
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Post by phearthephoenix on Mar 9, 2018 13:47:30 GMT -6
I think the only reason the HL has a Friday to Tuesday format is to have our title game in primetime on ESPN. The MVC can pull off a weekend tournament because they have their title game on CBS. I'm guessing we'd be cast off to a lesser TV channel if we'd want change to a format that is more accommodating for fans by playing a Thursday through Sunday tournament. So I guess it comes down to what would the league rather have, more fans in the stands (Thursday - Sunday) or more eyeballs on TV with ESPNU and ESPN televising the semifinals and finals (current format). If we are staying in the current Friday - Tuesday format I'd rather go back to campus sites and have the #1 seed host. If they can switch to a weekend then I'd be all for a neutral site since more people would be able to go. It's not realistic to take off 3 or 4 days of work to go to the whole tournament as it is right now. By the way, Tuesday night's championship game was watched by 443,000 people according to SportsMediaWatch.com. That number is down a whopping 46% from last year.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Mar 14, 2018 9:40:48 GMT -6
One thing people are focused on is cheeks in the seats. Olympia has done a good job of making this event feel tenuous in it's future and has gotten the league to do things that favor Olympia. The year round marketing and making teams buy blocks of tickets are examples.
This is a case of big money taking advantage of little money. The league wants to make it work so they do what Olympia wants. Yet the big money isn't Olympia it is for Ilitch Holdings that owns Olympia, Little Caesar's, Hockeytown Cafe or Motor City Casino for example. Not to mention food and restaurant suppliers.
It costs Olympia $240,000 plus cost of the building. The holding company makes money off of Little Caesar's being advertised all over the arena and tournament marketing. Plus the giant little caesar's was open in the arena selling pizza non stop. If you went to Hockeytown to hang out, they made money. Many of the other food vendors in the area and certainly in the arena are getting their supplies from an Ilitch company. The Motor City Casino had a room deal and I understand a lot of tournament guests. Those people paid for rooms, probably ate there, ordered drinks from a bar and maybe gambled there. I would guess some of the parking is Ilitch controlled as well. So I don't believe for a second that holding company isn't making money off of this event.
With that said I am all about cleaning this event up. However, only having the last two rounds in Detroit is dumb IMO. Now only 40% of the teams and possible fans are going to go. The vast majority of fans are going to wait until they know their team is going to be there before committing to going. Either change to a 4 day men's only format or go away from this all together. Don't try so hard to have Detroit that you make it a format that nobody wants.
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Post by phoenixphan87 on Jul 17, 2018 15:28:37 GMT -6
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Jul 17, 2018 16:30:55 GMT -6
I think this needs to be made really clear to the league. If you want the event to draw fans you need a few things to happen. You need date equity, the event has to be at the same time every year. You need date sensibility, the event has to be on dates that people will travel, like Thursday to Sunday. You need format equity, the fans need to know that their team will be playing.
If the league doesn’t want to have a set time of the year, on days people will actually take off of work and include all teams so everyone can go then you will not build the next Arch Madness. The league also needs to stop thinking that MAC format can work for them. The MAC has date equity and date sensibility. However, the MAC format has been somewhat reliant on the fact that Akron, Kent State, Ohio, Toledo and Buffalo are only 3 hours or less away. The best teams and fan bases in the MAC are also the closest to the event. In the Horizon league Green Bay, Milwaukee, UIC, IUPUI and NKU are more than 4 hours away. Of the teams that are 3 hours or less away only Oakland and Wright State have any fans. Cleveland State, Youngstown State and Detroit don’t really draw at their home games, so they probably won’t be a major draw away from home.
I am all for Motor City Madness but they need to play a 10 team format on Thursday to Sunday for the men. If they won’t do that then the event will never succeed. If you want to include the women then play 2 rounds away from Detroit and just a 4 team Saturday and Sunday format when there is more time to fill at LCA. The women’s tournament didn’t add a lot of fans to the event so they can’t cater to it if they want the event to be sustainable, as unfortunate as that may be.
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Post by yayphoenixyay on Jul 17, 2018 17:55:53 GMT -6
You can say that in order for the HL to be up there with “the big boys,” they have to have a tournament in a fixed location all you want, but the bottom line is, the HL just isn’t a draw. Especially in MAC and Big 10 country, the HL is going to take a seat in the way back. Until a team makes a serious tourney run or two, the interest simply isn’t going to be there, given how spread out the league is as well. I’m all for going back to campus hosted games throughout. I was never a fan of the tournament moving in the first place, and now seeing just how absymal the turnout was, I’d say the experiment has to end. I mean the Resch, in one game, drew nearly a third of this years entire tournament total, when GB hosted a few years back.
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Post by gbbrl97 on Jul 18, 2018 8:44:11 GMT -6
The HL is not the HL anymore since Butler, Loyola, and Valpo left. Motor City Madness does not compare to Arch Madness (MVC) or even the MAC tourney. Those conferences are also more concentrated geographically and have larger fan bases (relatively speaking) than the HL. They should go back to campus sites for the HL tourney. But if the HL is insistent on going with a neutral site, it should be a Thursday-Sunday format, or a Friday-Sunday format if the open round games are played on campus sites. I know the HL wants to take advantage of the Tuesday night ESPN slot they have had for years where they would get the most attention, but at the expense of fan attendance, especially if it is a a neutral site.
The LeCrone and his minions need to realize that Barry Collier, Thad Matta, Tod Lickleiter, Brad Stevens, Gordon Hayward, Homer Drew, Bryce Drew, and even Porter Moser are not coming through that door. The position of 'HL Bellcow' is still open......although there have been teams that have tried to be that, but the Oaklands, Wright States, and even GB for a couple years could not close the deal in the NCAA's (or get to the NCAA's) and start that program momentum in order to be that Butler, Valpo, or Loyola.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Jul 18, 2018 10:59:31 GMT -6
What did Loyola ever do in the Horizon League to be mentioned in the same comment as Butler much less Valpo?
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Jul 18, 2018 11:07:14 GMT -6
Below is the average home attendance for the MAC last year. I see a couple of strong teams but certainly not head and shoulders better than the Horizon League. Their worst teams at the box office tend to further from Cleveland and their best teams at the box office closer. These numbers don't make me think a neutral site tournament can't work for the HL. The MAC plays their games in Quicken arena on Thursday to Saturday. That is just a better set up for those traveling.
Akron 2824 Ball State 3721 Bowling Green 1917 Buffalo 3570 Central Michigan 2132 Eastern Michigan 1233 Kent State 2800 Miami 1671 Northern Illinois 998 Ohio 5598 Toledo 3990 Western Michigan 2226
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Post by gbbrl97 on Jul 18, 2018 11:53:48 GMT -6
What did Loyola ever do in the Horizon League to be mentioned in the same comment as Butler much less Valpo? Apparently they did better after they left the HL, but Moser was building those teams when they were still in the HL. Valpo under the Drew family was a consistent winner and was at or near the top of the HL year in and year out. At least people paid a little more attention to the HL while those teams were in the conference. Right now, we are battling for mid-major relevance (overall). It doesn't help when your championship game is on a Tuesday in a cavernous arena with next to no people.
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Post by phearthephoenix on Dec 18, 2018 15:56:41 GMT -6
I don't have any news on this, I was just thinking about it since we've got basically a week between games. As we all know, it sounds like this will be the last year of Motor City Madness. Bids were due to the Horizon League by November 30th for cities interested in hosting the tournament for the next three years, from 2020 - 2022. I haven't seen any info on what cities may have potentially bid, if any. I've heard and read this debate at other places and I am in agreement that without a format change from Thursday to Sunday a neutral site venue just isn't going to work. If we're locked into a Tuesday night championship game then we might as well go back to the #1 seed hosting the tournament. If the league insists on a neutral site tournament, I like the idea of DePaul's new Wintrust Arena in Chicago. It's driving distance for UWGB, UWM, UIC, and IUPUI and possibly UDM and Oakland too. Plus there's an ample amount of flights to and from Cleveland, Dayton, and Cincinnati to Chicago. Not sure about Youngstown but I truly don't care because they are an absolutely worthless member of this conference and should not be catered to one bit. Another outside of the box idea, especially if the league wants the tournament in Indianapolis, would be Hinkle Fieldhouse. Since home venues like IUPUI's Farmers Coliseum are out of the question, that would leave the Pacers' Bankers Life Fieldhouse as the only Indy option and they have the Big Ten Tournament in 2020 and 2022. I do like the idea of Indianapolis since they have a knack for pulling off big events. I wrote a little blog post with some other options, though I don't really think there are too many good ones. I still think campus site is the way to go unless the format can be changed. Otherwise I like the idea of Wintrust Arena. Obviously, Fiserv Forum would be my number one spot for GB purposes.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Dec 18, 2018 17:16:57 GMT -6
I like the banter and thought put into your article. It does look like building in Fort Wayne has been renovated with the needed amenities, though the top section would need to be curtained off if you look at pictures of the arena. www.memorialcoliseum.com/about-us/historyI am beating a dead horse but the neutral site needs the following things: 1. Thursday to Sunday format 2. A city that league fans can drive to. 3. Plenty of hotels in walking distance of the arena and affordable prices would be a bonus. 4. An arena that is nice enough for fans to spend an entire day for multiple days. 5. An area that has several micro breweries, casinos or museums for other activity would also be helpful. 6. A city that has a little pizzazz for everyone to not complain about. While I don't think LCA is a bad spot it appears the ship has sailed on that. Fiserv Forum would be awesome as it would check most of my boxes. At one point I had a list of a few other venues I thought of, I will see if I can dig that up again.
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Post by gbbrl97 on Dec 19, 2018 7:46:56 GMT -6
I don't have any news on this, I was just thinking about it since we've got basically a week between games. As we all know, it sounds like this will be the last year of Motor City Madness. Bids were due to the Horizon League by November 30th for cities interested in hosting the tournament for the next three years, from 2020 - 2022. I haven't seen any info on what cities may have potentially bid, if any. I've heard and read this debate at other places and I am in agreement that without a format change from Thursday to Sunday a neutral site venue just isn't going to work. If we're locked into a Tuesday night championship game then we might as well go back to the #1 seed hosting the tournament. If the league insists on a neutral site tournament, I like the idea of DePaul's new Wintrust Arena in Chicago. It's driving distance for UWGB, UWM, UIC, and IUPUI and possibly UDM and Oakland too. Plus there's an ample amount of flights to and from Cleveland, Dayton, and Cincinnati to Chicago. Not sure about Youngstown but I truly don't care because they are an absolutely worthless member of this conference and should not be catered to one bit. Another outside of the box idea, especially if the league wants the tournament in Indianapolis, would be Hinkle Fieldhouse. Since home venues like IUPUI's Farmers Coliseum are out of the question, that would leave the Pacers' Bankers Life Fieldhouse as the only Indy option and they have the Big Ten Tournament in 2020 and 2022. I do like the idea of Indianapolis since they have a knack for pulling off big events. I wrote a little blog post with some other options, though I don't really think there are too many good ones. I still think campus site is the way to go unless the format can be changed. Otherwise I like the idea of Wintrust Arena. Obviously, Fiserv Forum would be my number one spot for GB purposes. Between what phearthephoenix and GBPhoenix1 said, here are my choices for a possible next neutral site arena; All 3 would be a little more intimate than LCA (which is 20,000+) as all 3 would be in the 10,000-13,000 range: 1. Wintrust Arena - DT Chicago 2. Sears Center - Suburban Chicago 3. Allen County War Memorial Coliseum - Ft. Wayne We know what we would get for entertainment options at Wintrust being in DT Chicago, however, the hotel room prices would be the highest of the 3. Sears would probably have better parking options and cheaper hotel room prices, but as it's WAY out of DT Chicago, you're practically in Eglin, IL at that point, what are the entertainment options? Ft. Wayne would be an interesting choice; I don't know what the entertainment options would be in FW, but the geographic location would be almost ideal (like St. Louis is for the MVC tourney) as it would be centrally located. With the exception of GB, the remaining HL schools would be 2-4+ hours away from FW. GB would be 6+ drive (with time change) however. However, if the HL stays at a Tuesday night championship game, having a neutral site won't work. You night as well go back to campus sites. A Thursday-Sunday format is the way to go if we want another neutral site location.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Dec 21, 2018 11:17:19 GMT -6
The more I think about this the more I like Fiserv Forum or Wintrust Arena. I like Fiserv better because I live in Wisconsin but for everyone else I would agree that Wintrust would be ideal. You would have a city with cache, a venue that is super nice and isn't too big.
Don't get me wrong I am an unapologetic cheerleader when it comes to this stuff. So I can get behind Indy, Cincy, Columbus etc. but I think if it is going to move Wintrust would be solid.
I actually don't mind Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids or Hoffmann Estates. However, I think the core fan base of the league would lose their minds if that happened (at least with Fort Wayne and Grand Rapids).
Toledo would fit in the same category as Fort Wayne and Grand Rapids. They do have a venue that would be perfect as well. Alliant Energy in Madison, Louisville, Pittsburgh and Evansville are just outside the borders of the league and could host if they had interest. Nashville is open and is an easy travel destination for the league members.
I will be really disappointed if this ends up at Rosemont. That place sucks.
I will also be disappointed if this ends up in Indy with IUPUI's building being used. Prior to IUPUI joining the league I advocated for that building. However, the league better stick to their guns and not give a league member a home court advantage.
I also will be disappointed if this goes back to campus sites. I think the optics of building being full or empty have little to do with anything. Nobody is going to tune in or not because of this. They are going to watch basketball. If the game is good they will stay if not they won't.
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Post by phoenixphan87 on Jan 25, 2019 9:12:57 GMT -6
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