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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Apr 21, 2013 12:51:58 GMT -6
I believe it was 97 who posted something in Jimmy's thread that got me thinking. He posted that the tournament could move to the Sears Centre in Hoffman Estate Illinois. I agree it is time to switch it up. I understand why the league runs it the way they do, they want to protect the best seed. However seeing Valpo at a 14 seed in the big dance this year makes me think it is time to try and build brand equity in the conference tournament because what we are doing now isn't that great. To start with the attendance is weak. The championship game had 4400 people. Part of that is because Valpo is a smaller community and while I will admit it seemed exciting in the grand scheme is the league further ahead? I don't think so. Plus as a fan you don't know where you are going until the week of and there isn't a lot of time to pull it off. Plus there isn't a lot of time for the schools to pull off gatherings or arrange groups. The current set up appeals to the hoops junkie but feels like it is always destined to be smaller than it could be because it doesn't appeal to all fans and alumni. The tv time is weak as well. On the deuce on a Tuesday night doesn't scream made for tv. Lets stop protecting the little nugget the league has and aim bigger. I would rather play a traditional weekend tournment and try to squeeze in a Sunday championship game. I can't imagine it would hurt tv that much but it might help attendance at the game. I don't think it makes sense to have it rotate through each school like it used to. That doesn't have the feel that would make me excited since to be honest some of the league members I have no desire to go to or are far away. I think it is time to follow the lead of two similar midwest mid major leagues that run a destination tournament like the MVC and MAC. I know the MVC has better home attendance than the HL. Heck even the worst home average of Drake was better than the best of WSU. So I understand why they get the numbers they do at Arch Madness. Part of that though also is because fans know where they are going, when they are going and each school has ample time to set up trips and events for their alumni. I don't know much about the MAC tournment other than where it is. I do know that the average MAC attendance is similar to the HL but their tournament games were played in front of much larger crowds in Cleveland than the HL played in. I have to believe that is because fans of league members have brand equity in their tournament. They know they will get a lot of hoops and I presume other entertainment. So where should the league play. I think their are plenty of neutral sites in the upper midwest to work with. The Kohl Center in Madison, the Sears Centre in IL, the Ford Center in Evansville, the Memorial Coliseum in Fort Wayne, the Cincy Gardens or US Bank arena in Cincinnati or the Nationwide Arena in Columbus all come to mind. Yet I can't help but feel why reinvent the wheel when the MAC and MVC already have it figured out. Each league plays in the home of their league headquarters which happen to be neutral sites, Cleveland and St. Louis respectively. Think about the HL, they are headquartered in Indianapolis and that is neutral site. Indy has a lot for sports fans to do, from the NCAA hall of fame to the Indy 500 museum there are destinations to visit. Plus in 2014 the area is going to be home to a venue that fits the leauge. No its not Hinkle, Lucus Oil Stadium or Bankers Life Fieldhouse. It is the Indiana State Fair Grounds Coliseum. It is getting a $60,000,000 plus upgrade and is still located in an easy to get to area of the city. While hoops isn't the primary use it certainly could accomdate the HL tournament as there is some talk of IUPUI playing there. Here is one of many links to review: populous.com/news/2012/01/19/populous-selected-for-pepsi-coliseum-renovation/Here is the bottom line for me. As the league is changing it is time to mix everything up. As I type this I am excited by the thought of playing at a nice neutral site arena. In a location the league office could really promote. In a location that has a lot of hoops fans who might come just to see good hoops. To have a tournament that is centrally located to every HL member team. To play a championship game on the weekend at a time that fans could still be home for work on Monday. To give fans a set schedule to make accomdations and allow each school to coordinate pre game gatherings/receptions. To be enough of a destination city that the league could have an official tournament hotel for fans to take over. I can honestly say I would commit to going each year no matter how GB is doing. I have to believe Arch Madness grows the MVC, now is the time to follow suit because I don't see the current format growing the Horizon Leauge. |
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Post by gbbrl97 on Apr 21, 2013 13:37:50 GMT -6
I didn't know about the Pepsi Arena venue in Indy.....Intriguing. I know the OVC plays their tourney in Nashville (formerly at Bridgestone Arena, but recently at the Nashville Municipal Auditorium; it seems like they draw decently there).
With the loss of Butler before this past season, the HL lost their major draw and probably part of the reason that the HL went to the current tourney format in order to create the path of least resistance to an NCAA berth and a more favorable seed in order to have the conference better represented in the NCAA's. However, BU became a big enough program to where they could lose in the HL tourney and still get a decent seed.....Like you said, why protect a team as much as possible by giving them home court only to get a 14-15 seed? I like the Pepsi Arena venue as a true neutral site if the HL goes more south/east in their expansion. I like the Sears Center in the event the HL adds NDSU/SDSU on top of anyone else. Chicago would be a more central location with respect to the 2 Dakota schools......I had also thought about having the HL tourney at Allstate Arena, but I've been there and it is cavernous.
I'm also not a big fan of having a conference tourney at someone else's campus venue.
Nonetheless, the HL is at a crossroads regarding their future......Changing the conference tourney format is a start, and the MVC and MAC have a great blueprint to follow.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Apr 22, 2013 9:38:38 GMT -6
I would agree that the Sears Centre is a good location in the event of a westward expansion. Also, I like that building for basketball as most of the seats are on the side court. Plus it has enough luxury suits that each school could have a box and there would be left over suits for any corporate partners the Horizon League may have.
As I wrote in the other thread I am more in favor of southern expansion. So that is why I like Indy for the league tournament. Let me just say that I have been to Banker's Life Fieldhouse and it is amazing. In my opinion it is one of the best basketball arenas around. If feels like all of the seats are on top of the court, it would have plenty of luxury boxes for the schools and corporate partners and the arena is in downtown Indianapolis where there are plenty of hotels and bars. However, the reason I proposed the old State Fair Coliseum was financial, size, local interest and event creation.
On the financial side I would assume that Bankers would cost more per day to rent and that there is more competition for dates with the NBA basketball, minor league hockey and concerts. With lower demand and the idea of setting a recurring annual multi day event I would think the State Fair venue would be a better value for the league. Plus, you can make additional revenue off of things like parking which downtown would be lost to other structures and the street.
Plus the Bankers facility is too big and would need drapes or tarps on the upper level to make the fit look better for the HL tournament. The league needs to find a tournament home that is just the right size that it shows well on tv, gets loud during the game and doesn't have so many seats that potential consumers don't feel a sense of scarcity. If I think the venue is small enough that it could sell out I am more likely to buy tickets in advance. I know this year I personally bought semi final HL tickets behind the visitor bench way before I knew GB would be in the game. The size of the ARC did put scarcity in to my decision. The state fair coliseum should seat 8500 or so for hoops. I really don't think there is any reason the semi finals and finals of the HL tournament couldn't draw that if done correctly.
On the local interest side it is well established that Hoosiers love their hoops. I also think it is fair to say that Hoosiers love historic venues. Think of old buildings like Hinkle Fieldhouse, the Wigwam in Anderson or buildings like Bankers Life Fieldhouse which is meant to feel old. I think giving local fans a rare opportunity to see high quality D1 hoops at a renovated historic building might draw locals even though there is no local team. Plus having it away from downtown by just a little bit might be easier to draw locals. While maybe not quite as cool for visitors, as a general rule I think suburban Midwesterners don't like to "battle" their downtowns. I know it is like that in Milwaukee and Green Bay and neither city has an unmanageable downtown.
The last thing on my mind is related to event creation. As a way to draw fans of the schools and locals alike the tournament needs to take on the feel of a party, event and hoops tournament. If you use the state fair grounds there are enough pavilions/arenas/exhibit halls to do some other things on the side. I am not sure what it would be but ideas like a member expo to let each school set up a display to try and recruit perspective students in the area. A space for each school to hold a pregame pep rally. A space for each school to put up a display to talk about the legends of their program or the HL to talk about the legends of the league. Maybe you have clips of great games and invite former players and coaches to talk. Maybe you have a second court set up for teams to do a shoot around and you use that as a VIP area so fans can watch up close. Maybe set up a fun zone for kids with rides, a bounce house, face paint etc. A place to sell beer (local micro brew if any) and food (include any local ideas like the Brat is to WI) to adults. A place to host some live music or a concert after the games let out. I don't know what you can do and I don't know what this all costs. I know I am just one fan who is most likely wasting time thinking and typing this. I just know successful events when I see them and I think this league should look for ways to hold a really successful event. An event that could go a long way towards stabilizing and growing the league and each member program.
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truth
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Post by truth on Apr 22, 2013 18:17:18 GMT -6
Good observations, BUT there is this:
At least with the current format you are guaranteed of having a couple hundred crazy college kids, and maybe thousands, at the homecourt of the highest seed. A neutral-site game, like the MCCC and Horizon tried in Chicago a few years ago, would be great for the Dockers set but not so great for the college kids.
And to be honest, the number of fans at Horizon games, if UWGB is any indication has been dwindling. We have problems getting people to drive across town to go to a game much less carve out three days to go to Indianapolis in March.
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Post by stillaphoenixphan on Apr 23, 2013 9:13:52 GMT -6
Good observations, BUT there is this: At least with the current format you are guaranteed of having a couple hundred crazy college kids, and maybe thousands, at the homecourt of the highest seed. A neutral-site game, like the MCCC and Horizon tried in Chicago a few years ago, would be great for the Dockers set but not so great for the college kids. And to be honest, the number of fans at Horizon games, if UWGB is any indication has been dwindling. We have problems getting people to drive across town to go to a game much less carve out three days to go to Indianapolis in March. You make some good points. I'm part of the Docker set, but I also see the need for student attendance(I'm amazed by GB's student's lack of attendance). A possible alternative is play the seed games on home floors and then play the Championship on a neutral court. Problem is the only way this would work is if it's centrally located(Chicago) and it's played on a Sunday afternoon so I could go down Saturday and drive back after the game. This would work for students too. Even if we added SDSU or NKU they could still make it back Sunday evening. Game done by 3:30-4 PM and 4-6 hr drive for most people. I like the idea of a 3 day event discussed but I think you're right in student attendace would be near zero? I hated this year having the title game on a Tuesday night. It only worked for TV and the home team. |
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Apr 23, 2013 9:50:16 GMT -6
I can see where right now people would think a neutral site tournament wouldn't work because fans don't travel well. I would say that fans travel better than they should right now. At the HL tournament this year WSU easily had 250 fans there and Green Bay easily had 100 fans. Now I realize those numbers aren't huge but think about it. Those games were played on limited notice, were free on national tv and in my opinion were played in the second least desirable market to travel to. There is nothing else to do in Valpo so it is a big leap to get people to make that trip. For the championship game a fan would have to travel to Valpo on a Tuesday and most likely come home Wednesday, that is a lot of work to miss for one game with nothing else to do. If the HL can get each team to bring on average 300 people to attend that puts you at 3000 in a ten team league. I think you can easily get numbers to exceed that. Right now the fans don't know where they are going to play, some of the markets are far away and some of the markets have nothing else to do. Getting people to go is a stretch. Maybe you combine it with the women's hoops tournament to give fans twice as much action from their school. I think if you create a destination event you can get people. You need other attractions, you need a good value and you need marketing in advance. It is proven that people will do what you want if you have this formula. You can apply it to other sports and it works. It can be tailgating at a professional baseball game or going to an Nascar race. These events have figured out how to market to people, entertain them in multiple ways and give them a good value yet still get people to travel and spend. Almost every team in the HL draws a good crowd for a Saturday home game against a meaningful opponent. There is no more meaningful game than the games played in the league tournament, you just need a subsection of each schools widest fan base that understand that. The league has never tried a true neutral site game. It has always been played a member schools home court. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_League_Men's_Basketball_Tournament The game in 2002 was the one that really messed up the tournament in my opinion. UIC played Loyola at Cleveland State to go to the dance. The game had an empty arena as it was played on a Tuesday night between the 5 & 6 seed. The locals didn't care and it was too far for a lot of fans to go on short notice on a week night. That is why I think it is important to do a neutral site game on a weekend with a tip time that people can go home after. It is also important to have the game in a location that is in the center of the foot print. From Youngstown/Cleveland to Indy is 5 or so hours. From Green Bay to Indy it is 6 hours. Everyone else is 4 or less with UIC, Valpo, Detroit and WSU being very manageable. If you add in Oakland or NKU they are also easy drives to Indy. If you want some student flair, find a few bars to give discounts with HL member school ID's. Or at the game itself sell discounted food/drinks to of age students. Make it cheap, fun and kind of convenient and I bet you can drum up some kids. Rome wasn't build in a day and neither will an event based tournament. It will take a commitment of a few years to get it fine tuned and get fans to feel like if they don't go they are missing something. |
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truth
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Post by truth on Apr 25, 2013 18:47:21 GMT -6
Excellent points being made here.
A Sunday or even Saturday championship game opening Championship Week might work very well for more fan attendance. How would that fit into ESPN's schedule? I guess you would be going up against the final regular season weekend for the Big Ten and other power conferences, but isn't the MAC one of the earlier title games, too? In a way, by having one of the first title games (sort of like a presidential primary) you might get more attention.
I also like the idea of having a men's/women's title game doubleheader at a predetermined neutral site. And wouldn't you think the leage and the coaches and athletic directers would jump at trying something new, at least on the women's side, after playing the championship game and most of the tourney for about 15 straight years in Green Bay.
All the tournaments I have gone to, attendance is better or more convenient for me, if you can count on seeing two semifinals on Day 1 (that's what makes it fun, seeing part or all of two games), you stay overnight and then go to the championship game and drive home
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Mar 17, 2014 21:04:15 GMT -6
I read on twitter that Gary Waters from CSU mentioned their is a push among the coaches to get the HL tournament on a neutral court and that it could happen as early as next year. The Indianapolis and Chicago markets were mentioned. I will be curious to see how this plays out.
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Post by gbbrl97 on Mar 17, 2014 21:27:27 GMT -6
If it was in Chicago,I would try to get it at the Sears Center in Hoffman Estates, IL. I would rather avoid downtown Chicago if at all possible. Also, the Indiana State Fairgrounds may be a good place as well.
However, most of the HL schools are commuter campuses. You need student attendance and having the tournament at a neutral location may hinder attendance.....Is there a Native American casino in the HL footprint that has a grand ballroom large enough to have a basketball court?? If the Battle For Atlantis preseason tournament is held in a ballroom, and if the WCC, WAC, and PAC 12 can have their tourneys in a casino, why not??
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Post by PantherU on Mar 17, 2014 22:36:19 GMT -6
You know if our governor got off his butt we could do it at a casinorena in Kenosha in a couple years
Sent from my SCH-R970 using proboards
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Post by markus31x on Mar 18, 2014 5:06:55 GMT -6
I disagree with moving the tournament to a neutral site. You have to protect the #1 seed as much as possible - which is why I am a huge fan of the double bye for the top two seeds. Would the Horizon League have been better off this year with GB in the dance or Milwaukee? I also agree that it would hinder attendance.
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Post by shooting the J on Mar 18, 2014 6:55:05 GMT -6
I disagree with moving the tournament to a neutral site. You have to protect the #1 seed as much as possible - which is why I am a huge fan of the double bye for the top two seeds. Would the Horizon League have been better off this year with GB in the dance or Milwaukee? I also agree that it would hinder attendance. I agree, no reason to make a change. The attendance was outstanding for the Semi-final and Championship. Everything needs to be done to protect the teams that actually have a chance to win in the Big Dance. Having a 15 seed in the dance while a twelve seed-worthy team isn't in is the worse possible scenario for the conference. With the number of times the HL champ hasn't won the tournament, the HL should be looking for ways to even further clear the path for the #1 seed. I have no idea what that would be. |
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Post by dutchcountry7 on Mar 18, 2014 8:02:53 GMT -6
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Post by dutchcountry7 on Mar 18, 2014 8:07:23 GMT -6
If the HL wants to do well with a neutral site they need to make a real effort and that means being willing to spend money. Need to get students to travel to games even if it means being lax on classroom attendance or buying students tickets. Need to establish bars and restaurants that are official team meeting sites before the games and it needs to be in Chicago. The city has the most alumni in it who would be willing to take a few hours to see their old school play and it is a city students will want to go to for a getaway. There needs to be things to do when you're not going to the games.
Playing the men and women together at the same site can help with cost and may draw a few more students or fans for the week. festivities.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on Mar 19, 2014 17:12:56 GMT -6
From what I read they don't want to change the format. The top seeds will still get byes, they just want to change the location to a neutral site.
I don't see what the league is protecting at this point in time. In the last 3 years the home court has been lost 3 out of 4 times (I am counting GB and WSU twice for this year). That resulted in 15 seeds for Milwaukee and Detroit. Last year Valpo held serve and was a 14 seed. If the HL ever has had really good team like some of the Butler teams or the Pearl led Milwaukee teams I think they will get in and be seeded just fine without the HL tournament victory. This year GB wasn't on that level and hence didn't get in.
Plus from a business stand point I see chances to monetize the tournament that don't exist now. If the league knows where it is going to be held in advance they can start to sell adverstising, partnerships and packages around that. Now there is little chance to do that on the short notice that goes into the tournament site being determined.
I still maintain that the current format isolates the fans. It is good for home court but the rest of the league wasn't traveling to Green Bay on a weeks notice. Having a central neutral site would give a chance to change that.
The more I think about it the less I like the Sears Centre. It would be a good environment in terms of size and amenities but it isn't in a destination part of Chicago. The new McCormack Place arena being built for DePaul would be a much better Chicago based choice.
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