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Post by phearthephoenix on May 5, 2015 20:22:23 GMT -6
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Post by exithere on May 5, 2015 21:17:42 GMT -6
20,000 seating capacity for basketball game....
so the tournament will be held in an almost entirely empty building... Talk about no atmosphere at all.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on May 6, 2015 5:17:14 GMT -6
I am in the minority around the league on this one. Two years ago I had several posts on this board discussing going to a neutral site for the league tournament and then building an event around that. So I am not going to change my tune now, I like the idea. I also like that each team is getting $20,000. I like that they are locking in for five years to build momentum and tradition. Plus most fans could drive there easily as it is kind of centered for the league.
I also assume this gets to a more traditional 10, 8, 4, 2 teams four day tournament which I kind of like better than having several two day breaks that the HL currently has.
I am not sure I love it being in Detroit and at Joe Louis arena. Detroit itself has casino's and Windsor is across the river so that could be a draw for visitors. Outside of that I am not sure what the draw is but that could be my own lack of knowledge. I don't like that two teams have home court advantage, I would have preferred Indy or Cincy. I don't like that it is being played in a 20,000 seat arena that is a little dated and kind of tucked into a corner of downtown away from where visitors will stay.
My bottom line on this one is I will go and support this. I think it is time for a change and while I don't love all of it I like enough of it to be pleased.
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Post by gbbrl97 on May 6, 2015 7:24:41 GMT -6
I'm not quite sure what to think about this yet. I agree with GBPhoenix that change was needed. When the HL went to the #1 seed hosting the tourney with the top 2 seeds getting a double bye, it was done to protect Butler from getting upset in the conference tourney and giving them the best chance to win the HL tourney to best represent the HL. As it turns out, it somewhat helped them pave the way to get into the A-10 and eventually the Big East.
Since the HL does not have that perennial top-40 RPI bell cow anymore (like Butler was), and having that chance of getting 2 teams in the NCAA's for those years Butler was upset in the HL tourney now gone, the timing was right to make that change to the tourney format and host site. I hope they keep the double bye format to at least give the top team some reward for being regular season conference champ and runner-up.....I still scratch my head at Detroit as the tourney site, but as I think about it more, it makes sense in the short term. Here are some additional thoughts:
1. We cannot compare ourselves to similar RPI conference like the MVC or the MAC. The makeup of the HL schools are primarily commuter campuses, so attendance for most schools in the HL are average at best, even when you're a top team. Since the MVC tourney is in a centrally located site (St. Louis), and the MAC is in Cleveland (most of the MAC is in OH and MI), those will draw more since respective alumni from MVC and MAC schools are concentrated in those cities......You can even look at a lower RPI conference like the OVC where they play in Nashville. Their member schools are also a very geographically concentrated area; Eastern Ill is the furthest from Nashville at just under a 5 hour drive. A true neutral site tourney works for them.
2. The HL is more geographically spread out. If we wanted to go back to a neutral site game, maybe the Sears Center (Hoffman Estates, IL) or Indiana Farmers Coliseum (at the IN State Fairgrounds; you can throw Bankers Life Fieldhouse, but that venue is 18,000+ and would not be that much smaller than JLA). They are smaller venues at the very least. The Sears Center has a capacity of 11,000+ and that would even be a bit cavernous versus Joe Louis Arena. Indy would be a true neutral site and the Indiana Farmers Coliseum is a 6000+ venue and would be a more intimate atmosphere.
3. At the very least, Detroit was selected with the fact that Oakland and UDM are nearby and would help with attendance in the event one or both of those teams make a run. But those teams are typically towards the bottom of the HL in attendance. I'll go back to my original statement that change is needed, but is this the right kind of change?
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Post by thetulsawarrior on May 6, 2015 7:33:10 GMT -6
The bottom line is the Joe Louis Arena people made them an offer they couldn't refuse. The city is having trouble bouncing back and frankly attracting business of any kind. Chicago, Cleveland and Indianapolis don't need to throw money to get business. For the Horizon League there's a paycheck where there wasn't one. Detroit geographically works for driving and cheap airfares.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on May 6, 2015 7:57:04 GMT -6
I have to say I just read something that makes me like this even more. I knew JLA was being replaced I just didn't realize when. The free press article mentions that the event is likely to move to the new red wings arena after two years when that is ready. That arena and the entertainment district that is supposed to come with it makes this a slam dunk move. As Tulsa said there is now a pay check so the teams are going to make money or at least break even on this and fans will have a draw to go from outside the area. www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26066330/new-red-wings-arena-entertainment-district-unveiled
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Post by PantherU on May 6, 2015 8:04:34 GMT -6
I'd be fine with the move if we all had traveling fan bases. We don't.
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Post by gbbrl97 on May 6, 2015 8:19:23 GMT -6
I like the new RW arena and entertainment district area. It could make the tourney a better fan experience, but now we need fans to go......
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Post by thetulsawarrior on May 6, 2015 8:44:52 GMT -6
This is all part of a destination trend for conference tournaments. I think Las Vegas has at least four men's basketball conference tournaments plus the women's tournaments. That's where the PAC 12 Tournament is and there are no PAC 12 schools in Nevada.
The future is destination tournament sites where there's more to do than watch basketball if your team loses. Right now Detroit is the wall flower sister but that could change. The Missouri Valley developed something nice with the St. Louis site for their conference tournament. The Summit has shifted locations trying to find a fit. They were at high school venues in Texas and suburban Tulsa. (note to reader those arenas were in the 7,500 to 8,000 seating capacity)
The question the Horizon League commissioner had to ask -- does the economics work (yes since the arena people are kicking in money) and will fans come? Detroit should at least no matter what attract UD and Oakland fans as a base attendance. The city and the Canadian side have a lot of roundball fans to draw on. (Could this also suggest the commish is considering a central location because of future expansion?)
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Post by gbbrl97 on May 6, 2015 8:53:15 GMT -6
The location would help assuming NKU is joining the HL soon.
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Post by exithere on May 6, 2015 9:04:08 GMT -6
Horizon League teams have a hard enough time getting fans into their own stands much less have their fans travel to Detroit. My gut feeling is that its going to be a cavernous, empty arena. Detroit is no longer a tourist destination, like is was a decade+ ago.
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Post by GBPhoenix1 on May 6, 2015 13:10:56 GMT -6
So many fans around the HL complain about their school being too good for the HL and needing to move up to the MVC or A10. Those leagues pull off great get away tournaments. I will just go on the record and say that if your team can't get 500+ fans to drive to Detroit to support the tournament you pretty much need to stop complaining about the HL and dreaming of the A10/MVC because your program isn't that strong.
A neutral site tournament that I can plan ahead of time and see the full tournament in one weekend does have a chance. Especially if they are getting into a top flight arena before competition exists. That is way better than finding out on Saturday I have to drive to Youngstown on Tuesday, then wait until Friday to see a game in Valpo and then maybe going back to Valpo or off to Wright State to see the game on the next Tuesday. Of course fans don't travel for this, it is very difficult if you work a regular job to make that work. By contrast if fans leave on the same Thursday afternoon every year and need to only take 1.5 days off of work and can book their room in advance to get a deal and know where they are going for entertainment when the game isn't being played then fans might actually travel. No offense to Valpo but going down and back with a stop at BW3's or Culver's isn't motivating for the tournament even if they have a great actual in game atmosphere. If I can roll into the MGM or Caesar's, then head to the new entertainment district and see all the games in 3 days with side activities at the event well know I have a little something more to look forward to.
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Post by shooting the J on May 6, 2015 15:42:51 GMT -6
The bottom line is the Joe Louis Arena people made them an offer they couldn't refuse. The city is having trouble bouncing back and frankly attracting business of any kind. Chicago, Cleveland and Indianapolis don't need to throw money to get business. For the Horizon League there's a paycheck where there wasn't one. Detroit geographically works for driving and cheap airfares. The payday is chump change. Everything they make will be lost in reduced regular season attendance because tournament seeding is mostly inconsequential now. Just another brutal, short-sighted move by Jon LeCrone. Hosting the Horizon League Tournament brought a lot of money into the city. Now MEG has sold out on the city that built the school the facilities that allow it to compete.
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Post by thetulsawarrior on May 6, 2015 15:58:02 GMT -6
You may be right. We'll have to see. I do no the trend is for conferences to have one location for their post season tournament. The people who run the arena in Detroit were definitely shopping for events and this is the start for them. I will guarantee one thing. Detroit will get a shot at hosting the Big Ten Basketball Tournament.
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Post by shooting the J on May 7, 2015 9:16:44 GMT -6
You may be right. We'll have to see. I do no the trend is for conferences to have one location for their post season tournament. The people who run the arena in Detroit were definitely shopping for events and this is the start for them. I will guarantee one thing. Detroit will get a shot at hosting the Big Ten Basketball Tournament. The Big Ten Basketball Tournament is booked elsewhere through 2022. I'd be shocked if Detroit got a shot, as the Big Ten held their hockey tournament there, and it was a major negative. The trend may be to have a pre-booked site, but the trend is also to rotate the site. Also, the pre-booked site has lead to empty arenas for conferences our sizes. We should learn from others mistakes. The only thing worse than being a follower instead of a leader is being a blind follower.
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